The Investigative Edge: April Simpson's Insights for Journalism Students

April Simpson [00:00:07]:
Investigative reporting is journalism that goes very deep on a particular topic and it seeks to uncover the truth about that topic or issue. It's often focused on a systems failure or some type of government, corporate, some type of wrongdoing that is happening. And reporters at all levels can pursue investigative reporting. But I think investigative journalism differs from other types of journalism in that it zooms out and tries to see the big picture. It's slower. We just finished a podcast at CPI called the Heist. It's a five episode podcast and it is focused on black farmers and the long documented history of discrimination that they faced with the Department of Agriculture.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:01:03]:
That's April Simpson, senior reporter at the center for Public Integrity. If you're a journalism major or perhaps thinking about becoming one, this episode is for you. I'm telling you, we cover a lot of territory. We discuss April's journey, the nature of investigative journalism, the Heist, which is her podcast about black farmers. She gives some advice for journalism students and we talk about how she brings a story to life. Throughout the conversation, she reflects on the significance of mentorship and the need to stay true to one's passion in the field of journalism. This is the Academic Survival podcast and I'm your host, Dr. Chandra McDonald.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:01:52]:
Statistics show that approximately 40% of students drop out of college every year. In fact, nearly 30% drop out their first year. Well, I am on a mission to improve these stats. Hi, and welcome to this episode of Academic Survival. Today, I have with me April Simpson, and she is the senior reporter covering racial equity at the center for Public Integrity. So, April, welcome to Academic Survival. How are you?

April Simpson [00:02:21]:
I'm good, thank you.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:02:23]:
Yes. So I am excited for this interview to, for one, just like, getting to know your background and the ways in which other students are traveling down this, this same journey might be able to learn from your experiences and the things that you're doing these days with your, with your degree. So let's dive right in. My first question is like, where did you go to school? What college did you go to and where's it located?

April Simpson [00:02:47]:
So I went to Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, which is in western Massachusetts, and I studied American cities and government. I double majored there. But I actually started my college career at the University of Florida. I went there my first year of college and studied journalism and then transferred to Smith as a sophomore.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:03:07]:
How many majors did you have?

April Simpson [00:03:09]:
I ended up at Smith with two.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:03:12]:
Majors, American government, American studies, and then also government. Yes. And then what, like, inspired you to become a reporter? How did that, how did you go From American studies and government to ending up being a reporter.

April Simpson [00:03:25]:
Wow. Okay. It started much earlier. We moved to Florida when I was 11 years old. And we moved from Yonkers, New York, to small town Florida. And that was like huge culture shock for me. And in high school, I had a teacher. We actually had a broadcast journalism program.

April Simpson [00:03:44]:
And that teacher suggested I take the print journalism class because I always loved writing. And that was where I felt like I finally found my stride. I found my place there. It felt like I could ask people questions about this kind of strange place that I found myself in and come to a greater understanding of it. So I knew from high school that I wanted to do journalism, and I decided ultimately to go to Smith, which didn't have a journalism program because I really wanted to at that point, get out of Florida. I was always committed to leaving.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:04:24]:
Was it because of the culture shock?

April Simpson [00:04:25]:
It was, in large part, yes. It was. I mean, in New York, where we lived was very racially diverse. And then when we moved to Florida, it was, you know, black or white and very much segregated. And I just wasn't, you know, also just small, didn't have same access to transportation. And I just never got used to that. I wanted. Yeah, I always wanted to leave.

April Simpson [00:04:46]:
And I was very fortunate that Smith gave me a very generous financial aid package and enabled that to happen.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:04:53]:
You decided that you wanted to go into journalism, and that's exactly what you did. Is it at all what you expected it to be?

April Simpson [00:05:00]:
Yes and no. I think yes, in that the core of writing and reporting doesn't change, regardless of how much the industry has changed. So, you know, you're. You're still interviewing, you're still having to report and get out in the field and access data and documents and so on. But the time that I started college, got out of college, and had my first few years of journalism change so rapidly with. And online. Oh, okay. So, I mean, those things, I'm like an elder millennial.

April Simpson [00:05:38]:
Those things were not, as, you know, they were not a part of your job, you know, to the extent that they are their core to your job now. And I didn't quite expect that when I first decided early college, that journalism was it for me. You know, the stories have become more participatory, and we're really thinking more about the community and working with. In partnership with the audience rather than talking at them. And that's a change that was unexpected.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:06:10]:
I like that. Partnership with the audience. I have not heard that expression before, but I like that. So someone who's Majoring in journalism today, like you've said, this change in technology is altered as far as what you expected. And then now we're dealing with AI. So it seems like there may even be another technological shift coming within journalism, perhaps. So from your perspective, like, what should journalism majors be prepared for?

April Simpson [00:06:38]:
I think students and young people are really adept at seeing the future in a way that elders may not be. So I think that young people can tell, you know, they can tell us, like, the directions in some ways that media is going. You know, for example, I mean, this is super old, but like, blogging was a thing that I think kind of was very grassroots, that journalists, I don't think, you know, Capital J journalists didn't fully appreciate back then when that was something that was coming up. And I think the same thing can be said for social media. And now, like you said, AI. And I don't know, I think young people can probably tell us how AI can become more integrated into our work and how it can make us more efficient and productive.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:07:31]:
Yeah, I. I'm thinking about. You mean, you know, you said journalism and like Big J journalism. I'm also thinking about how other fields have. There's other fields that's kind of been impacted the same way. So, like, for example, there's so many people who are coaching these days, and yet, like, mental health professionals that, like, that's like, how they were trained. They've got a whole different set of guidelines that they have to abide by when it comes to, quote, coaching because of their professional. The professional degree that they actually have regarding it, or licensing, I should say so anyhow, that's just a side note, but I do have a question about, like, particular barriers.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:08:08]:
Were there any barriers that you faced in your career?

April Simpson [00:08:13]:
Absolutely.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:08:16]:
Sometimes when it comes to barriers, it could be like, kind of like a touchy subject. So what are you able to share when it comes to any barriers you may have faced?

April Simpson [00:08:26]:
Yeah, I think I would say the biggest barrier, and one I still struggle with, is kind of getting out of my own way and being sure of the path that I've chosen for myself. So when I graduated, the Great Recession happened a couple years later, and just journalism was looking really bleak and newspapers were laying off so aggressively, and it was tough to really find my footing, and a lot of places were looking for different skills. And like I said, like, than I had anticipated. But I always knew in my heart of hearts that journalism was what I wanted to do. And I, you know, I did use that time to try different things, and I Deviated a bit, but I always came back to it. And now that I look back on it, I feel like I wish I just listened to my gut and I wish I wasn't afraid of what I saw happening in the industry because I was young and I had time and space and, you know, not like, not like now, where I have many more responsibilities, where I can't, you know, I can't. There's just certain choices I can't make right now and moves I can't make, but I could, that I could have done then because my needs were so much lower. So I guess I just wish I didn't squander some time on the front end.

April Simpson [00:09:46]:
And, you know, I, I wasn't afraid and I listened to myself and said, okay, if reporting is what I want to do, then let's just do reporting and ride this wave and figure out how this industry is changing and how I can change along with it.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:09:59]:
Yeah, I think getting in your own way is a, is a universal challenge when it comes to getting in your own way. Do you have a solution for that? Now, these days, like, is there a way, Is there anything like a, a process that you go through or just try to, try to be more confident? Like, what do you do?

April Simpson [00:10:17]:
I go to friends who know me really well and can remind me of, you know, who I am and why I'm here and not to get discouraged and, you know, yeah, just kind of remind me of my, my core values. So that's, that's one. Just having a really solid friend group and slash support group. And when I'm not stressed, I try to remember the places that bring me joy and then figure out, like, okay, like, for example, I love writing. I love trying to create pictures through words and helping people feel connected. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to do journalism. So, okay, if that is my core need for work, like, you know, I, I gotta stay true to that.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:11:12]:
What exactly is investigative reporting like? Can you explain how it differs from other types of journalism?

April Simpson [00:11:19]:
So investigative reporting is journalism that goes very deep on a particular topic and it seeks to uncover the truth about that topic or issue. It's often focused on a systems failure or some type of government, corporate, some type of wrongdoing that is happening. And reporters at all levels can pursue investigative reporting. The work that we do at the center for Public Integrity, we're not a daily journalism outfit. That's, you know, our bread and butter is, is investigative and longer form projects. And a lot of that work is focused on data and documents, analyzing data and documents. So. So we file a lot of Freedom of Information act requests with federal agencies to try to understand whatever issue it is that we're looking at better.

April Simpson [00:12:14]:
And I'm very fortunate to have work with data reporters who can access and look at these huge data sets and ask questions of this data. But I think investigative journalism differs from other types of journalism in that it zooms out and tries to see the big picture. It's slower. It's not about the day to day or like the individual, like play by plays. It's more like, okay, what does all that mean? What is the big picture here? What is the takeaway and what is the pattern that we're seeing here?

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:12:51]:
Yeah, so it's not that breaking news scrolling at the bottom of the screen. It takes some time to identify patterns and uncover system failures. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So then when do you know that you have a story? I would imagine as you're looking at data, looking for patterns, at some point you realize, oh, I have something here. What is that for you? How do you know when you have a story?

April Simpson [00:13:18]:
So for me, it is finding some of those patterns. It is just being able to spend a lot of time with an issue. You understand it really well. But also it can be good sometimes to just bring fresh eyes to it. Somebody can see, like, hey, that thing. Like that doesn't make sense. And being able to explain that in a clear way and try to get answers around it. We just finished a podcast at CPI called the Heist and it's focused on.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:13:48]:
Yay.

April Simpson [00:13:49]:
Thank you. Yeah, it was a journey.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:13:54]:
I do want to get into that. This is probably a good time to do that. Tell me about the Heist and this particular season.

April Simpson [00:14:01]:
Yes. So it's a five episode podcast and it is focused on black farmers and the long documented history of discrimination that they faced with the Department of Agriculture. It is focused on. Largely focused on a man, a rancher, black rancher in Oklahoma named Nate Bradford. And he is based in one of the old black towns in Oklahoma called Boley, One of the 13 remaining historic black towns in eastern Oklahoma. And, you know, basically he's trying to make it as a rancher. He's younger, he's in his mid-40s now. And it's difficult because in some ways that history of government discrimination looms over him.

April Simpson [00:14:48]:
You know, there are ways that the Biden administration now is trying to correct for that. Discrimination faces its own challenges in doing that. And industry, just agriculture has changed so much. Where it's very difficult to be a small player like Nate.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:15:02]:
Yeah, I could see that. It's almost like the. Well, this is not the same, but I'm thinking of it in terms of how you have the mom and pop shops and then now you've got the big box stores, which makes it harder for them to compete in every way. The bigger corporations or whether it's Amazon making it harder for local bookstores to thrive, just seems like the bigger corporations and many facets of life make it harder for the smaller entity to thrive. So it's interesting that that's also happening to ranchers.

April Simpson [00:15:34]:
Yeah, absolutely. Nate likes to call it the Wal Martification of agriculture, where.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:15:42]:
Oh, really?

April Simpson [00:15:44]:
He says now to make it, you have to be able to do every part of the process, where ages ago you only had to do one thing really well. And I think that applies to a lot. I mean, I can apply that to journalism, too, where one only had to be a reporter. But now we're doing podcasts and we're doing social media and we're doing videos and so on. So, you know, he argues it makes it so much harder for small guys like him to compete. And a lot of the government programs are more. You get subsidies and they pay more to farmers who have more land, which is going to be. Black farmers are so small anyway, but it is still going to be largely white farmers.

April Simpson [00:16:31]:
And then farmers who are. Who are bigger get. Often get larger subsidies. Yeah.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:16:37]:
I participated in a civil rights tour through the South. I've done it a few times with an organization. And one of the years we went to, I think we were in Mississippi when we were able to speak with a rancher. And he was just basically explaining one of the difficulties is like, getting a loan approved on cycle. Like, it's like if you don't get the money on time, you can't really, you know, have your crops. So it's a challenge that he was explaining that had a direct impact on his operation. And then also for him, also having children who were not interested in necessarily continuing the business and not wanting to lose the land. But if you don't have anyone who wants to carry on that legacy, it makes it extremely challenging.

April Simpson [00:17:21]:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's something that a lot of elder black farmers at least talk about because their children saw the really hard challenges that they had to go through and are saying, nope, I don't want any part of that. Opt out of this.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:17:38]:
How can I opt out of this? So for. For you, how did you know that this was a story that you wanted to investigate.

April Simpson [00:17:45]:
So I had started reporting on rural issues about five years ago, and as a sub beat for that, I started looking at agriculture. And then that led me to learning more about government discrimination against black farmers. And through talking with farmers, I Learned about Pickford vs. Glickman, which was this landmark class action suit where black farmers took the government USDA to court and won, although it was problematic, which is a whole other conversation. But through, you know, through. Through learning about that history, and then now with the Biden administration trying to make efforts to correct for past discrimination, it started a debt relief program earlier in the administration that was trying to relieve the debts of farmers of color. And that effort faced challenges in the courts and ultimately had to be put on hold. And Congress essentially replaced it with another program that is for all farmers regardless of race and provides some measure.

April Simpson [00:18:58]:
It's very different, but it. But it.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:19:00]:
It's not targeted.

April Simpson [00:19:00]:
It's not targeted, and it's just a very different program that provides some measure of debt relief. So all of this stuff happening now and that history of discrimination that is often largely centered on loans told me that I wanted to look at discrimination and lending and tell this story about black farmers today.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:19:19]:
Did you find any things like, oh, my gosh, I totally want to go down that rabbit hole, but I got to stay focused. Did you uncover. Because I would imagine when you were investigating something, you might stumble upon other things, other avenues that you want to explore further. Did you have that. That happened to you at all during this?

April Simpson [00:19:35]:
Yes, I did. There. I. I'd like to look more at subsidies and being able to really understand the disadvantage that black farmers and other farmers of color have around the subsidies that they get from the government and the historical underpinnings of that. That's. I mean, it's all very, very complicated. So it's kind of over there for me right now. But.

April Simpson [00:20:01]:
But that is something that I'd. I'd really like to delve into deeper.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:20:05]:
So for students who want to travel down a similar path and do investigative reporting, for you telling this story, like, what's involved in bringing it to life? Like, is there a crew? Is there, you know, you and a. And a recorder? Are you like, other. Like, I don't even know what. What type of questions to really ask about this. But, like, what is involved in telling. In telling this story and bringing it to life?

April Simpson [00:20:31]:
There's so much involved. Oh, my good.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:20:36]:
So maybe. Maybe not everything, but, like, what are the top things? Because I know, like you were saying earlier, how when you started journalism, you know, there's this idea that you just be essentially focused, not like a generalist in terms of like being able to do all these, wear all these other hats, you know, having a podcast and do video. So like, what's involved? Maybe like the. Maybe like three other things.

April Simpson [00:21:02]:
Well, so for bringing a story like this to life, it's first having a really good understanding of the system. You have to understand the system really well and spend some time doing that. So you're probably writing stories, just other stories about different related topics that you don't know where they're taking you, but they will ultimately help you step back and say, oh, connect the dots and say, oh, you know, I think I want to ask this bigger question and pursue this as an investigative story potentially, because then you need to see, okay, well, here is my question. How can I answer that question? What resources do I have at my disposal to do that? What data can I access to be able to answer this? What documents available are there to answer this? Can I get those data and documents in a timely manner? And you try to get those things, access those things and see what they tell you. For us, we work very collaboratively at CPI and we have data reporters that we work in partnership with to be able to navigate a story like this. We have an audience engagement team that is working alongside you throughout the process and thinking about, okay, what is the best way for our audience to understand this topic and what are the tools that we can use to help bring the story to them. And sometimes that can be, you know, it's often there's staples like social media and different spaces to share the story. But sometimes it can be having a live event with people from the community and the journalists, or it could be tapping into different groups on the ground and asking them what they need and seeing what questions they have and trying to do something that is a bit more solutions oriented.

April Simpson [00:23:10]:
So there's that and then there's also just the elements like photos and videos and other multimedia. There's editing. There's an editor who is editors really overseeing the project and asking you questions throughout. And you're having to rewrite and rewrite some more. And then there's fact checking that happens in house through an attorney who is our fact checker. And then also depending on the story, we have another attorney who's on contract with us who make sure that everything is tied up correctly also. So there's, there's a lot of people involved throughout the process.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:23:53]:
Yes, that is very, that's a Lot of people. It's a whole. It's a whole machine. It's a whole.

April Simpson [00:23:59]:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:24:01]:
That's a lot. So when you were talking about documents or things, resources that you want to access as part of the story, and, you know, can I get them in a timely fashion, it makes me wonder, like, how long did it take to actually do the heist?

April Simpson [00:24:14]:
It took a bit more than a year. It wasn't the only project I had going on or any of us had going on, but it took more than a year, and I had some leave, about three months of leave in there, too. So it was. It was a very long process. It was a journey, like I said.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:24:35]:
So how do you know when you're finished? I don't know. Does the story tell you that it's done, or, like, just like, does the budget tell you that you're done? Access people tell you, like, how do you know when you're finished?

April Simpson [00:24:49]:
I think. I think other people might answer this question differently, but for me, I feel like, yeah, those things, like, you're. You got a deadline, this has to go. We're done here. But in a lot of ways, it feels like the story is never quite finished because it can always. You know, things always happen. And like you said, questions come up and other stories come up that you want to. Whose paths you want to follow.

April Simpson [00:25:13]:
That could be useful. But at some point, you know, there's a deadline and you just have to move on.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:25:18]:
When you're developing the story and you're interviewing people and you're involved with the. With the community, like, how do you build a rapport with those people? Sometimes, I don't know. I'd imagine that some people don't necessarily want to talk into a microphone. Like, how do you build a rapport during that interview process?

April Simpson [00:25:36]:
I mean, in the beginning, you're not. Like with Nate, for example, I was trying to find people that we could potentially focus the podcast around. And he. He kind of knew that, but, I mean, I didn't. I don't know how much depth I went into at the outset. I was really just trying to understand him better and see what he could hear about his own story and see what documents he had to confirm and verify some of what he was telling me and to what extent he was willing to share that. I tried to listen to him and listen to what he thought was important and ask questions so that we could build trust. I talked to other folks who were around him, like family and other people in the community.

April Simpson [00:26:27]:
I always try to just aim for understanding in my work, especially for something like this where we do have time to build those kinds of relationships. Ideally, you're already working in this space, so you're already aware of some of the key sources and you've already interviewed those folks and have a relationship with them before you're trying to do a podcast. Yeah.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:26:55]:
So what did April Sims, investigative reporter, learn during this process? What did you learn?

April Simpson [00:27:02]:
Oh, my goodness, I learned. I learned a lot. I'd never hosted a podcast before. I dabbled in some audio reporting. I mean, dabbled reporting in production, but that was a big learning experience in itself. Just being out in the field reporting for audio reporting is the same, but you do phrase questions a bit differently to get a response that's going to work for audio. So there was a lot of learning that happened with that. And I had never.

April Simpson [00:27:36]:
I'd filed requests for freedom of information before, but not so many. So there was a lot of learning that happened in filing those requests. And I was very fortunate to be working with a data reporter on that. So we tag teamed on that. I learned a lot more about this agricultural policy and what we call source building. So building that trust and rapport with folks on the ground like Nate and some level of project management, because there were so many moving parts and pieces to keep track of. And at the end it gets super intense when everything is getting ready to get published. So I learned some about project management as well.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:28:28]:
So what impact has this story had on the issue that you're aware of so far?

April Simpson [00:28:34]:
I mean, I hope it's helping people feel seen and heard. So I hope it's helping folks who feel like their challenges haven't been given much of a spotlight have now, and that there's a greater understanding of it. I hope that this work is also reaching folks who may have never thought about the plight of black farmers and decided, oh, I want to continue learning about this. So I hope it's building that curiosity and awareness as well.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:29:07]:
So of all of the work, your entire body of work, what work has made you most proud?

April Simpson [00:29:15]:
I struggle with this one. Every. Everything is. I mean, everything I've done is so different. Like, I like some of the longer form stories I've been able to do because it's just fun to be able to really go deep on a project and bring your voice, your writing voice to it and play with scenes and help people, hopefully, I mean, the goal at least, it's to help people feel like they're in that place. And so, I mean, I've done Some work internationally. I did a story in Eastern Congo some years ago, and I was proud of that. That was a lot of fun.

April Simpson [00:30:02]:
Yeah, that was a lot of fun. But I don't know, everything is so different.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:30:07]:
So with that Eastern Congo project, what was it about it that ranks up there as being, you know, a proud work that you take pride in?

April Simpson [00:30:15]:
I mean, when I think back on it, I'm like, whoa, I don't think I would go to Eastern Congo today. I don't know. It feels. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it just. It's really amazing. And I'm so fortunate to have had that experience and to have been able to go to Virunga national park and we went gorilla trekking.

April Simpson [00:30:40]:
That's. Yeah. I mean, that's like, wow, I can't believe I had that experience and got to write about it and got to. At the time, there were a lot of militia groups. I don't know what the status of the country is in now, but at the time, there were a lot of militia groups in North Kivu. But the UN had taken over, basically, and it was the safest time to go. This was about 10 years ago, and that's when we went. And I just.

April Simpson [00:31:12]:
I never. I don't know that I'll ever go to a place like that again. But now I have. I have a family. I don't know that I would be able to go to a place like that again. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:31:26]:
It's not just those independent decisions. Like, I get it.

April Simpson [00:31:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:31:30]:
Okay, so I want to talk about a little bit about being overwhelmed, because we talked about deadlines and just all the different things that are involved in bringing a story to life. So do you ever experience feeling overwhelmed?

April Simpson [00:31:42]:
Oh, yes, all the time. So much.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:31:47]:
All right, so what do you do to handle stress?

April Simpson [00:31:51]:
Oh, I'm working through this. I'll say. I often will do work on the weekends, so I try to not do that. I try to decompress by. A lot of times, I'm consuming things that are helpful to my work. So whether it's like a podcast or a movie, I'm thinking about work. So I try to just watch things that are silly and, you know, or romantic comedies that have never typically been my go to, but at least it's like, it's not about work. Right.

April Simpson [00:32:24]:
Or it's not. I'm not learning something in service of whatever it is I'm. I'm writing about. So I try to do things that are light, try to get outside. I. I'm Trying to do better with hobbies. I do. I mean cooking I have to do, but I kind of enjoy it and I've gotten better at it.

April Simpson [00:32:44]:
So that's actually become a bit of a release for me. Okay.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:32:48]:
Yeah. I can relate with the romantic comedies, the rom coms. That was not at all a genre of film that I ever liked or enjoyed. But I have found myself within the past two or three years really enjoying not just rom coms, but specific. They're like Christmas rom coms. I have no idea why, but it seems like that starts to put me in the Christmas mood and I've just really started to enjoy them. So yeah, I binge watched a few a couple years ago just on Netflix. It's like, oh, here's another Christmas one.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:33:21]:
Oh, here's another Christmas.

April Simpson [00:33:22]:
Oh, here's another Christmas one. Yes. Yeah. Actually my. So yeah, binge watching shows. My go to is Jane the Virgin. I love digging the Virgin.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:33:32]:
Oh. So I, I didn't even know that show like came on like regular network television. I didn't discover it until it was on Netflix.

April Simpson [00:33:40]:
Same here.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:33:40]:
And I think I, I think I binge watched. I don't know if it was like the first two seasons, but I really like, this is actually pretty good. I really enjoyed it.

April Simpson [00:33:49]:
I love it. Whenever, whenever I need a laugh like I've. I go to Jane and I binge watch Dane. Yes.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:33:59]:
Yes. So I just want a take on like your personal style. So if you were designing a support system for journalism students, what would it include?

April Simpson [00:34:09]:
I think having folks at different levels who can, you know, who are, who are willing to hear you and guide you and tell you the truth when you need to hear it too. So I mean I have, I'm very fortunate. I have folks who are, you know, retired journalists who I can go to and talk through things with. I have friends who are not journalists who I can talk through things with and give me a different perspective. And I also try to not talk about journalism with. I try to like set it aside too, you know, like have, have a bit of distance from it as well. I think all those things are really helpful. Having hobbies and investing in them because it's so easy to just get consumed in the work.

April Simpson [00:35:01]:
But I do think like younger people are so much better about having boundaries for themselves and taking self care seriously. So I appreciate that. Yeah, I think all that stuff, getting a good night's sleep, all that stuff can be helpful.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:35:18]:
Yeah, I think that this, there's, there's definitely a generation that prioritizes self care, prioritizes vacation, prioritizes like all the things that I have felt in the past that I've got to try to like squeeze, squeeze in, make time for. It's like, oh, they're just living the life. They're, they're living the life. And yeah, I could sometimes wonder, are you also working or are you just, are you just living life? But anyhow, that won't go into that. I saw that you had been doing some mentoring at some point with the journalism. My question is like, if you were going to teach journalism to students, if you were going to teach like the April Simpson technique of investigative reporting, what would be like the top three rules? Like, you must do this, you must do that, and you must do this. Like, what would be your top three rules?

April Simpson [00:36:17]:
I think learning the art of interviewing is really important because it is an art and it's, it's hard. I mean, you're dealing with all different types of people. But it's important to know how to do more of an accountability interview or at the other end, it's important to know how to talk to and interview someone who does not know much about journalism and media, where you have to really hold their hand and walk them through it and make sure that they are very aware, especially if it's someone who is, who has experienced some level of trauma, they are very aware of what they are sharing, the potential ramifications of it, you know, where it is going to be shared, like really, really break it down. So I think just interviewing and 1, 2, understanding the source and how to deal with government officials all the way down to just regular people and people in very vulnerable circumstances. Those two things are really important. And learning and appreciating and working in partnership with your audience and thinking about them every step of the way and, you know, taking a step back and asking yourself like, what is the best way for this, for this reporting to be consumed and how, how can we go about doing that? What is the best tool at our disposal for making sure the story reaches the people that we're really trying to reach so that, you know, it's not a long form investigative story that sits on a website, but people who you've written about in a place that has little or weak Internet access, doesn't actually see the story. It's, it's finding ways to make sure the story gets to them. And maybe the story is not, you know, a 3,000 word story.

April Simpson [00:38:25]:
Like, maybe that's not the story that they need to be. That, that is for them like, maybe there's another way to tell the story.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:38:32]:
Always like to ask people this question, and it is, in what way are you impacting the lives of others?

April Simpson [00:38:41]:
I hope, I mean, I hope I'm helping. Like I said, people feel understood, seen, heard, hope. I'm building bridges in a way. So people who, I mean, that's what also drove my interest in journalism. Like moving from a place that was so different, you know, outside New York City, to a very small town with its own history and not really understanding that as an 11 year old. I try to bring historical context into my work so that people hopefully get like, what is underpinning the issue or topic that we're talking about that this thing didn't just happen? Like, no, there's a whole history to this thing. And I hope it informs someone's thinking about it. Like, it may not.

April Simpson [00:39:30]:
I'm not trying to, you know, change minds, but at least like, build more education around the issue. I mean, especially now where I cover racial equity and inequality and inequality is such, is such a focus point right now. But, you know, people don't always understand that the inequalities that we see are rooted in issues that are long standing. We can look at, you know, things all the way going back to the 60s and even before that that are systemic problems that are still facing us today and haven't been fixed. So I hope my work is helping to bring greater levels of understanding.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:40:11]:
All right, my final question. There's journalism students who are going to be graduating this year. What advice do you have for them?

April Simpson [00:40:21]:
Try to build your audience or build your brand. As they say, don't be afraid to whatever it is you want to be doing in journalism, like, whether it's writing or taking photos or audience engagement, editing data, like, whatever it is, do it and share it with the public and, you know, try to build an audience around it and figure out what does that audience need from you and try to serve them. So start a newsletter sharing your work or talk through the things that interest you on social media network like crazy. And don't be afraid to follow up with people. Find the local chapter of a national journalism group. Like, I'm a member of the national association of Black Journalists. There's Hispanic journalists, Asian American journalists, indigenous journalists, there's the Society for Professional Journalists, online and news association, LGBTQ journalists. Like, there are all sorts of journalism organizations and they're very, very helpful, especially for early career journalists.

April Simpson [00:41:26]:
So, you know, find the local chapter, go to their events, talk to people, ask questions. Folks are very Helpful. If you can afford it, go to the national conferences and just, you know, talk to people. And if you feel called to leadership in those organizations, like, go for it, volunteer. Some of these conferences actually have organized student journalism projects. So if you're a student, you can apply and cover the conference where they'll have like a conference? Yeah, like it's cool, like a conference newspaper. Or they'll take over one of the TV channels at the conference hotel and the broadcast journalism students will be giving the news of the conference for folks at the hotel. And it's cool.

April Simpson [00:42:14]:
So it's a great opportunity to learn and to network. If you have to take a full time job outside of journalism to pay the bills, do that. But to the extent that you can make sure you have time and space to be doing journalism outside of that job until you can get that full time job in journalism. But ultimately, like, don't get discouraged. Don't give up. It's really hard. Like it is very hard starting out. But if you keep plugging away, you'll find a path that's right for you.

April Simpson [00:42:44]:
But be patient because it's going to take time. It might take years, but you'll get there.

Dr. Shandra McDonald [00:42:49]:
Well, thank you so much for coming to the Academic Survival podcast, April. I think that journalists do important work. I have heard the phrase that journalism is the fourth branch of the government. You know, just making sure that people are held accountable, making sure that truth is being told. And we are living in an age where truth is being confused with what is not true. It is in many cases being hidden, being buried. And it's important that there are some truth tellers out there that are looking for stories that we would not ordinarily see on our own, but bringing those stories to life. So thank you for the work that you do and thank you for sharing your story on the academics of our podcast because I believe it will help future journalists.

April Simpson [00:43:34]:
Thank you so much for having me and thank you for your great questions.